2008 revisionism
by Jay, San Diego, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 11:19 (6295 days ago)
edited by Jay, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 13:12
I've seen a few people now declare that 2008 was a story of "halves", with UNC being the dividing line.
When I look at the 2008 season I see nothing so clean cut.
Here's a response I put up on NDN to one such post. Any thoughts?
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2008 is not neatly divided into "good, then bad," and UNC did not crack the code. There was no neat and easy demarcation line to the season, with good performances beforehand and poor performances thereafter. I think the better explanation -- albeit messier -- is that we were maddeningly inconsistent from the beginning, and throughout the season.
Our offense sputtered against SDSU, UM, MSU, BC, Syracuse, and USC. It rocked and rolled against PU, Stanford, UNC (yep, UNC), Washington, and Hawaii. It was dead average against Pitt and Navy. The truth is our offensive output was all over the map all season long. Individual game outcomes defy a simplified explanation that the teams later in the season "figured out the template."
P.S. There's some serious revisionism going around about the UNC game. North Carolina did not "shut us down." Yes, they did jump our TE routes effectively and took one to the house to open the half. But we put up 497 yards of offense in that game, on just 10 drives. We gained 64% of our available yards, which was the third-highest percentage all season (better than our performance against Hawaii, even). We lost the game because we turned the ball over (3 fumbles, two interceptions, once on downs); specfically, we turned it over 3 times in the fourth quarter alone. This is the not the same way that BC or USC beat us, who completely shut us down in a way UNC didn't.
Another story of two halves
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Monday, March 02, 2009, 20:20 (6294 days ago) @ Jay
edited by LaFortune Teller, Tuesday, March 03, 2009, 04:07
Taking national drive scoring averages, we can calculate the average expected offensive points that can be scored from every starting field position (for a graphic representation, see this post: http://www.bluegraysky.com/forum/index.php?id=771). Then, we can calculate the ratio of the sum of each team's expected offensive points by the total sum of both team's expected offensive points in the game. In other words, which team controlled field position in the game and by how much, expressed as their share out of "100" percent of field position points to be had.
(To calculate Field Position Efficiency (FPE), I also take into account defensive and special teams scores as having already earned a full touchdown value of expected offensive points, even though the offense doesn't take the field -- this way, a return that is stopped just shy of the goalline doesn't artificially inflate the field position advantage).
In 2008, Notre Dame was 7-1 in games in which it held a FPE over 50. The Irish were 0-5 when playing at a field position deficit.
Nationally, teams that play with a field position advantage win 67% of the time. When they hold at least a 60-40 advantage in FPE, they win 90% of the time. ND played North Carolina and Boston College at a 37-63 deficit, and played Michigan and Washington at a 59-41 FPE advantage.
Syracuse was an outlier, with the Irish holding a 63-37 FPE advantage while losing the game. The Orange started every drive inside their own 40-yard line; Notre Dame, meanwhile, had two more offensive possessions (because of a special teams fumble by Syracuse and an odd number of first half possessions) and started four drives inside the Syracuse 25-yard line (netting 6 points).
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How extreme can FPE get? The biggest margins in 2008 nationally were about 70-30. An example: Georgia Tech vs. LSU in the Chick-Fil-A Bowl. GaTech had the ball only seven times in non-garbage time, with an average starting field position inside its 20-yard line. LSU recovered an onside kick and a punt fumble by the Yellow Jackets, and had an average starting field position at the 50-yard line.
fascinating stuff
by Spesh
, Los Angeles, Tuesday, March 03, 2009, 05:57 (6293 days ago) @ LaFortune Teller
Does it take special teams scores into account at all? Or no, since there's technically no starting field position? How would that work?
Re: Special Teams and Defensive scores
by LaFortune Teller
, South Bend, Tuesday, March 03, 2009, 09:12 (6293 days ago) @ Spesh
Sorry if that wasn't clear. Yes, I credit the "field position" earned by a special teams or defensive touchdown as part of FPE.
Specifically, if a punt, kickoff or interception is returned to the opponent's 5-yard line, it is worth 5.471 "points" in field position. If it is advanced five more yards and into the endzone, it is worth 6.958 "points" for FPE (to account for national success rates in point-after attempts).
If I didn't credit these, of course, a team would be better off in FPE by not actually advancing big returns into the endzone.
These posts are excellent.
by Joe
, Tuesday, March 03, 2009, 12:34 (6293 days ago) @ LaFortune Teller
I don't really have a whole lot to add, but I consistently learn a ton of stuff by reading alot of these posts. The stat geekiness makes me giddy.
I just wished NC's fumble had been reviewed.
by PaulM, Chicago, IL, Monday, March 02, 2009, 13:28 (6294 days ago) @ Jay
It was blatant, and nobody believed Blanton when he told the refs to challenge it. Not even the announcers gave him his due when the on screen evidence was there.
I agree with the overall thesis...
by domer.mq
, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 14:26 (6295 days ago) @ Jay
edited by domer.mq, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 17:24
but I think UNC did have the patience, for the first time we'd seen that season, to stick with on particular tactic for beating ND: jumping routes and forcing JC to go to his second look. The first successful jump went for a TD INT return, the next "successful" jump caused JC to pause long enough to help with him getting stripped of the ball (If I recall that at all correctly).
I think you might be able to say that UNC shut down ND in the 2nd half. ND scored just once in the 2nd half, and that drive required a roughing the kicker penalty to stay alive after ND went 3 and out (JC threw an incomplete on 3rd and 2 from the ND 36). That drive went 72 yards for a TD, but after that, the Irish drove for 8, 51, 33, and 63 yards without a score to end the game. That's about 1/3rd of the yards gained by the Irish without a score, and only the 8 yard drive occurred with ND holding a lead in the 2nd half, meaning, in a way, that the other fairly "long" drives just ate up a lot of clock without any ultimate productivity (scores).
I'll still maintain that the real "template" for beating ND, and one that Butch Davis probably appreciated, was that you could wait for ND to screw themselves up (see also: red zone offense), so long as you could hold on and keep things from getting out of hand. But the entire notion of a "template" is really dumb. It's something that lets board posters think they have any clue what it's actually like trying to execute on a game plan at game speed. Speaking as a veteran board poster/blogger: I don't have a freaking clue, and the "template" term makes me nervous.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
re: the fumble
by Spesh
, Los Angeles, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 15:31 (6295 days ago) @ domer.mq
It was a play action pass. The DT beat Wenger pretty quickly. Clausen didn't really have time to throw. He tried to evade the DT, but in doing so he left the ball exposed.
I hope Cave really pushes Wenger this year.
by Jim (fisherj08)
, A Samoan kid's laptop, Monday, March 02, 2009, 07:42 (6294 days ago) @ Spesh
Dan certainly did not live up to his billing last year. I really hope Braxton can light a fire under his ass and get him to start smacking people around.
While I certainly agree....
by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Monday, March 02, 2009, 08:42 (6294 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)
I was struck, when looking over some 2009 draft articles, at the number of outstanding players that Wenger and the interior OL went up against in 2008 - Raji, Brace, Fili Moala, Mauluaga, Terrance Taylor, etc.
If Wenger can manage to stay healthy (he's broken both wrists while at ND) I am hopeful that he can use the hard knocks from last season as a springboard to a much better 2009.
It was more than just being overpowered that was the problem
by PaulM, Chicago, IL, Monday, March 02, 2009, 13:26 (6294 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock
Wenger often had plays where he looked at air or blocked an already engaged D-lineman while an LB or DT came off unblocked and chased Jimmy out of the pocket. The exterior of the line often held very well under the pass rush, but the interior of our line was just not very good last year. Hopefully we will see some improvement in guard play. Olsen was the only good one and he seemed to get hurt a lot. Stewart and Robinson still have a way to go, and Wenger was a disaster down the stretch.
It's a tougher thing to see than some know.
by domer.mq
, Monday, March 02, 2009, 18:26 (6294 days ago) @ PaulM
Though you probably realize it. Sometimes when you're scanning the front for someone to block in the trough, it's hard to see the S or a Mike coming up on a delay. The trick is really to get a feel for it, meaning as you scan and see what's happening elsewhere, realizing what's happening where you aren't looking.
The C has to be able to read the field on the fly just as well as the QB.
I had hoped he'd be more developed by game 10 than he was. But as a first-year starter for all practical purposes, it's tough to play "well" at that position.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
Like it or not, it's his job.
by PaulM, Chicago, IL, Monday, March 02, 2009, 23:23 (6294 days ago) @ domer.mq
It doesn't matter if it's hard or not. Football is not an easy sport; there's a whole lot going on. In the end, we need to expect our players to do some things that might be hard if we expect championships. Championships are hard.
Certainly.
by domer.mq
, Tuesday, March 03, 2009, 07:14 (6293 days ago) @ PaulM
My point was more that's it's far less obvious that the S is coming on a delay when you're field-level than it is when you're watching on TV.
Like I said, I'd hoped his development by game 10 would be such that developing such instinct would have occurred. It hadn't. I think that sort of thing had just as much to do with our OL coach getting fired as our running game did.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
Of course, the SU DL had a nice game too.
by domer.mq
, Monday, March 02, 2009, 09:08 (6294 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock
And they don't exactly rank up there.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.
True.
by FunkDoctorSpock, Your Nightmares, B* tches, Monday, March 02, 2009, 09:41 (6294 days ago) @ domer.mq
edited by FunkDoctorSpock, Monday, March 02, 2009, 09:45
Although I wouldn't be surprised if, after he gets back from that pec injury, Arthur Jones ends up in the pros.
Jags got out at the right time
by BPH, San Diego, Monday, March 02, 2009, 08:52 (6294 days ago) @ FunkDoctorSpock
edited by BPH, Monday, March 02, 2009, 09:41
He wasn't restocking the talent base, and he realized it was only a matter of time before the bottom fell out. I knew that Raji and Brace were stud DTs, but I had no idea just how studly they are. Apparently Raji is projected to be picked in the top 10 of the draft and Brace might sneak into the first round, too. I just can't imagine that BC's defense next season will look anything like it has with those two guys in the middle.
Yet another example
by terribletr, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 17:57 (6295 days ago) @ Spesh
of why it is all about the Oline next year. Weis will get Clausen's cover 2 issue cleaned up next year. That will be relatively meaningless if 5 guys can't block 4, again.
Preach it brother.
by scriptcomesfirst
, Monday, March 02, 2009, 13:04 (6294 days ago) @ terribletr
- No text -
ah. Again with the "domer is a bad witness" thing...
by domer.mq
, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 17:21 (6295 days ago) @ Spesh
Thanks. Now that you describe it, it's like I can see it in my mind just as you describe it.
Either way, I also recall a lot of "holy crap, Jimmy, throw the ball!" moments, which I assume were from looking for 2nds and 3rds. Then again, what I recall is usually worth crap.
Still, it's sort of a remarkable thing to gain that much yardage and not score. Really need to hang onto the ball.
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Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.