A good article on "civility" - at least to me.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:22 (2836 days ago)

We Have a Crisis of Democracy, Not Manners
By Michelle Goldberg
Opinion Columnist
NY Times

June 25, 2018

Last year, the white nationalist Richard Spencer was kicked out of his Virginia gym after another member confronted him and called him a Nazi. This incident did not generate a national round of hand-wringing about the death of tolerance, perhaps because most people tacitly agree that it’s O.K. to shun professional racists.

It’s a little more complicated when the professional racist is the president of the United States. The norms of our political life require a degree of bipartisan forbearance. But treating members of Donald Trump’s administration as ordinary public officials rather than pariahs does more to normalize bigotry than exercising alongside a white separatist.

Over the last week, several Trump administration officials and supporters have been publicly shamed. On Friday night, the Trump press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders was asked to leave a farm-to-table restaurant in Lexington, Va. That morning, protesters blasted a recording of sobbing migrant kids outside the home of Kirstjen Nielsen, Trump’s secretary of homeland security.

A few days before that, Nielsen left an upscale Mexican restaurant near the White House after protesters confronted her, chanting, “If kids don’t eat in peace, you don’t eat in peace!” The Trump adviser Stephen Miller was also yelled at in a Mexican restaurant — someone called him a fascist, though he may not regard that as an insult. The same night that Sanders was denied service, Pam Bondi, Florida’s Trump-supporting attorney general, was heckled outside a movie theater where she’d gone to see a documentary about Mister Rogers. Adding to the furor, Representative Maxine Waters, a California Democrat, urged people to keep jeering at members of Trump’s cabinet when they’re out and about, saying, “You tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”

Naturally, all this has led to lots of pained disapproval from self-appointed guardians of civility. A Washington Post editorial urged the protesters to think about the precedent they are setting. “How hard is it to imagine, for example, people who strongly believe that abortion is murder deciding that judges or other officials who protect abortion rights should not be able to live peaceably with their families?” it asked.

Of course, this is not hard to imagine at all, since abortion opponents have assassinated abortion providers in their homes and churches, firebombed their clinics and protested at their children’s schools. The Roman Catholic Church has shamed politicians who support abortion rights by denying them communion. The failure to acknowledge this history is a sign of the reflexive false balance that makes it hard for the mainstream media to grapple with the asymmetric extremism of the Republican Party.

I’m somewhat agnostic on the question of whether publicly rebuking Trump collaborators is tactically smart. It stokes their own sense of victimization, which they feed on. It may alienate some persuadable voters, though this is just a guess. (As we saw in the indignant media reaction to Michelle Wolf’s White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner routine, some pundits project their own concern with Beltway decorum onto swing voters, who generally pay less attention to the news than partisans.)

On the other hand, there’s a moral and psychic cost to participating in the fiction that people who work for Trump are in any sense public servants. I don’t blame staff members at the Virginia restaurant, the Red Hen, for not wanting to help Sanders unwind after a hard week of lying to the public about mass child abuse. Particularly when Sanders’s own administration is fighting to let private businesses discriminate against gay people, who, unlike mendacious press secretaries, are a protected class under many civil rights laws.

Whether or not you think public shaming should be happening, it’s important to understand why it’s happening. It’s less a result of a breakdown in civility than a breakdown of democracy. Though it’s tiresome to repeat it, Donald Trump eked out his minority victory with help from a hostile foreign power. He has ruled exclusively for his vengeful supporters, who love the way he terrifies, outrages and humiliates their fellow citizens. Trump installed the right-wing Neil Gorsuch in the Supreme Court seat that Republicans stole from Barack Obama. Gorsuch, in turn, has been the fifth vote in decisions on voter roll purges and, on Monday, racial gerrymandering that will further entrench minority rule.

All over the country, Republican members of Congress have consistently refused to so much as meet with many of the scared, furious citizens they ostensibly represent. A great many of these citizens are working tirelessly to take at least one house of Congress in the midterms — which will require substantially more than 50 percent of total votes, given structural Republican advantages — so that the country’s anti-Trump majority will have some voice in the federal government.

But unless and until that happens, millions and millions of Americans watch helplessly as the president cages children, dehumanizes immigrants, spurns other democracies, guts health care protections, uses his office to enrich himself and turns public life into a deranged phantasmagoria with his incontinent flood of lies. The civility police might point out that many conservatives hated Obama just as much, but that only demonstrates the limits of content-neutral analysis. The right’s revulsion against a black president targeted by birther conspiracy theories is not the same as the left’s revulsion against a racist president who spread birther conspiracy theories.

Faced with the unceasing cruelty and degradation of the Trump presidency, liberals have not taken to marching around in public with assault weapons and threatening civil war. I know of no left-wing publication that has followed the example of the right-wing Federalist and run quasi-pornographic fantasies about murdering political enemies. (“Close your eyes and imagine holding someone’s scalp in your hands,” began a recent Federalist article.) Unlike Trump, no Democratic politician I’m aware of has urged his or her followers to beat up opposing demonstrators.

Instead, some progressive celebrities have said some bad words, and some people have treated administration officials with the sort of public opprobrium due members of any other white nationalist organization. Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable.

Sometimes, their strategies may be poorly conceived. But there’s an abusive sort of victim-blaming in demanding that progressives single-handedly uphold civility, lest the right become even more uncivil in response. As long as our rulers wage war on cosmopolitan culture, they shouldn’t feel entitled to its fruits. If they don’t want to hear from the angry citizens they’re supposed to serve, let them eat at Trump Grill.


I invite you to follow me on Twitter (@michelleinbklyn) and join me on Facebook.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook and Twitter (@NYTopinion), and sign up for the Opinion Today newsletter.

A version of this article appears in print on June 26, 2018, on Page A27 of the New York edition with the headline: We Have a Crisis of Democracy, Not Manners.

This is some serious egotistical bullshit.

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:25 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

Short version: because my untreated TDS is really important to me, my being a dick to others should be credited as virtue. I'm a hero, damnit.

I'm one of these abortion opponents she talks about. I've been witness to a banal evil that looks little better than infanticide in some cases, supported by one of our major parties. Yet somehow I've managed not to run around calling politicians baby killers at their homes or dinners, much less shoot or bomb anyone. Maybe she thinks my extreme asymmetry just hasn't gone off yet, which must give her comfort as fuel for rationalization.

Being civil does not mean being passive. Disrupting intolerable politics should not be degrading. It's like some of you have never read MLK or DDay. Those people were pains in the ass, but they were essentially loving. And they were a hell of lot more effective than Ms. Goldberg. I don't think that's an accident.

I don't think we should encourage people to shout at

by Joe ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 18:03 (2836 days ago) @ OGerry

anyone from the administration that we happen to see out eating - largely because I think it's ineffective and shifts the media focus away from more important things.

I have absolutely zero problem with a business owner deciding that she doesn't want Sarah Sanders eating in her restaurant and calmly asking her to leave, though.

Then get out of the hospitality business.

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 18:33 (2836 days ago) @ Joe

Maybe Zeus is visiting as Aunt Lydia.

On the list of things this country needs, I would think Red and Blue restaurants would rank in the lower third, like Notre Dame football in November.

I don't know.

by Joe ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 20:30 (2836 days ago) @ OGerry

If a murderer rolled into my restaurant, I don't think I'd serve him a sandwich.

I'm not certain why I have an obligation to serve people (outside of those legally protected) simply because I chose to run a restaurant for a career.

If a murderer rolled into my restaurant, I'd call the police

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 06:14 (2835 days ago) @ Joe
edited by OGerry, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 08:42

unless said murder were improbably out on parole for managing not to shiv anyone in the pokey. Then "debt paid to society," and all that. I'd smile, take his order, and be sure never to present my back.

If you believe your ethical duties and your legal duties lie in perfect confluence, then we're not going to be able to have much of a conversation here. From where I stand, a person may have a legal right to be an asshole to others without it being right or just.

If you own a restaurant, you've hung up a shingle that says you'll welcome the stranger and feed the hungry and earn your livelihood from the quality of that work. Picking and choosing who qualifies for your hospitality is a dick move betraying your very purpose for being as an ongoing project.

Again, how are we better as society if we divvy up who we treat with respect publicly based on political similarity and difference, including professional services? You really want a world in which you bring in your Audi with a Bush Cheney bumper sticker, and I, your mechanic, refuse to do the work because you support those murderous bastages? Or you're the surgeon getting ready for my third open heart bypass. You're ready to go down the established zipper line when you see I have 'I'm With Her' and a big photop smiling HRC tattooed across my chest. You insist I find another surgeon because I clearly support a murderer.

People in a healthy society would readily see such a state of affairs as pathetic and wretched, but because we're talking about Donald Trump and his minions, people go off their nut and pat themselves on the back for how woke they are (see OP). Trump winning.

FWIW, every restaurant I see hangs a sign

by Joe I @, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 09:21 (2835 days ago) @ OGerry

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

I'm not sure if that's California law, or otherwise. I struggle with this, especially in light of the Colorado baker case, but it is simple fact.

I presume and hope

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 14:46 (2835 days ago) @ Joe I
edited by OGerry, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 15:15

that the sign is for patrons who becomes unruly or disruptive, breaking the mutual covenant, and not just people the owner decides she hates from the giddy-up. You also need the disclaimer in your pocket in case someone walks in without shirt or shoes or pants.

I imagine you are not one of those abortion opponents

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:38 (2836 days ago) @ OGerry

she's talking about. The thrust of that paragraph, to me, is to take to task the hollowness of the given example. A rejoinder of "How would you pro-choice folks like it if people were mean to abortion providers and pro-choice public figures?" is an empty hypothetical, because it is not hypothetical.

Like Steedle below, I'm presenting my feelings as just a focus group of one. Am I likely to shout someone out of a restaurant? No. Am I likely to be upset by Kjirsten Nielsen being shouted out of a restaurant? Two weeks ago, yes. Now, no. I find it deserved (or, at least, not undeserved). They are asking for it, literally.

It's a hypothetical to me, because I don't do that.

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:03 (2836 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

Neither do most pro-life people. And I think the behavior of those who do is wrong and self-defeating (again, not an accident to join the two). I say as much whenever relevant.

What you're telling me is that you wouldn't do the kind of behavior in question, which means you must see something wrong in it, but you won't assert that as a positive duty on others. I'm not asking you to have sympathy for Sanders, Nielsen, et al. They are bad people doing bad things, and deserve to have their political lives made difficult. I'm asking you to assert the personal stand you've drawn for yourself as a political norm, because it will make our country better.

I'm less assured of my own personal norm than before

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:17 (2836 days ago) @ OGerry
edited by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:41

I made a post last week about feeling destabilized, because I do. Up to this point, I've been a strong believer in never fighting over an empty bag. I still believe that, but I just can't see this one as an empty bag. True, there's the human horror -- but the human horror alone doesn't answer the question of why this issue and not: abortion, drones, poverty, or any of a thousand other issues. To me, it's because these kidnappings are designed as a raw exercise of cruel power for cruel power's sake. There is no commitment to good faith disagreement to be had because, for Trump, acting in bad faith is the point.

I do not believe we are dealing with people who are endeavoring to pursue their own good in their own way. I think we are dealing with people who are endeavoring to pursue the most damage they can impose with impunity because it demonstrates and facilitates their own power.

So where does that leave me with my own personal behavioral norms? I don't know. Maybe I'm temperamentally I'll suited. Maybe I'm too much of a coward. Maybe it's not my role. Maybe it still is morally wrong and I'm having difficulty squaring the circle. I really don't know.

Fair enough.

by OGerry @, Maine wilderness, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 14:12 (2836 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

Optional wars, torture, signature drone strikes, abortion, structural poverty...these are not of an entirely different species of evil compared to Trump holding immigrant hostages, at least to me. But I see now how they may be to you.

I know Godwin has cropdusted this board good and proper, but, to riff off Occam, I won't credit to malice what can be as easily explained by incompetence or stoopidity. We have elected a spoiled, unintelligent child President. He has the nuke codes and the executive order pen. He is not a stable evil genious. There is no Kristallnacht, no ovens in the interment camps, and no final solution. Zero tolerance sounded alpha dog to him, and it never occurred to him what that might actually look like in practice.

It's true that he's let actual Nazis fondle the levers of power, so I understand this isn't just the Bushitler bullshit one would see from the left. But it's not unrelated, either.

The structural part really is key.

by Publicola, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:32 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

It's one thing to have an unpopular, norm-violating president and political party. It's something altogether different to have an unpopular, norm-violating president and political party that is largely insulated from accountability.

And if political observers thought the government was in a crisis of legitimacy before, the recent string of 5-4 Supreme Court decisions should remind them that we can fall much further.

Great Article but one sentence made me a little pause:

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:29 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

"Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable."

There are conservatives who agree with the article as well. They are less likely to speak out but I think more important.

This should be a racists versus the rest of the country issue not a liberal versus conservative. IMHO.

Two Elie Wiesel quotes that I think are important to follow:

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:16 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.

There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest.

Very sad and very true

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:01 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

But maybe once Trump has accomplished ruining the economy with his tariffs, we won't have to wait long for this to finally end.

He’ll find someone else to blame for the economic problems

by Jeff (BGS) @, A starter home in suburban Tempe, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:29 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

And his base will eat it up and ask for seconds.

--
At night, the ice weasels come.

Harley's employees already have.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Thursday, June 28, 2018, 05:42 (2834 days ago) @ Jeff (BGS)

It's a cult.

https://www.ft.com/content/29f24644-78f1-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

His base isn't big enough to get him elected dog catcher

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:36 (2836 days ago) @ Jeff (BGS)

Nominated yes, elected, no.

If the economy turns down, the fence-sitters will drop him like a hot potato, especially the significant numbers of people in key states who voted for Trump in 2016 but Obama in 2012.

Many of those Obama-Trump voters

by CK08, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:21 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

voted for him because they wanted him to impose tariffs and bring back jobs. If/when the trade wars fail and cause job loss and economic slowdown, those people will leave him.

The Harley-Davidson news might be the worst thing that has happened to Trump since he got elected.

Exactly. People voted for him because they felt left out

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:33 (2836 days ago) @ CK08

Well, if they're left out of a job they sure won't vote for him. Or even if they don't feel they've advanced from 2016.

I sure don't see many people who didn't vote for him last time lining up to do so the next time based on the polling numbers.

Your second sentence is key

by CK08, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:04 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

Trump's victory was very narrow, and his tenure so far has not earned him any new voters.

His state-by-state approval ratings in the Rust Belt are pretty ugly, too.

I agree. Especially since Harley Davidson seems to me

by BillyGoat @, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:31 (2836 days ago) @ CK08

to be an iconic red state brand.

I suspect they're the first of many

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:58 (2836 days ago) @ BillyGoat

As an aside, isn't it interesting how nobody's talking about North Korea right now?

I don't think you appreciate the basis of Trump's appeal.

by MattG, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:06 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

It's ALL white grievance.

Trump's voters simply do not care about the rest of it. From the out-of-work coal miner, all the way up to Aaron Schlossberg. GOP tax policy, healthcare policy, and (most obviously) immigration policy is primarily defined by "what will help keep white power structures in place".

That's why, since the end of the Cold War, the conservatives have come to see Russia as an ally. They also define themselves primarily by whiteness. Poor white people will continue to vote for this stuff, even as they're robbed by it.

And the number of fence-sitters continues to decrease. As the nation polarizes, if you voted for Trump once, you're MORE likely to vote for him next time.

I don't think that is true.

by Bill, Murrieta, CA, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 14:22 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

I see much more 'hatred of liberals' as a driving force for Trump support than I do racism and white grievance. It's the final culmination of the Foxification of the Republican party. If a candidate is good at 'owning the libs' than these folks are going to vote for them.

I appreciate the basis just fine

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:28 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

He also barely won the presidency, by an aggregate of 77,000 votes in 3 states. He has NOT gotten more popular since then.

I'm not sure why people don't grasp that.

And not everyone who voted for him is a) in his base and/or b) a racist.

If he loses the next time by 77,000 votes or one vote or 10 million votes, I will be happy.

I think youre ignoring a large group of people

by DEM, Chicago, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:31 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

who voted for him because of the judiciary. You may want to assume that they are racists but that doesn't make it so.

I can't see that as a huge demographic.

by MattG, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:48 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

People who are 1) knowledgeable about the US judiciary, who 2) want conservative judges appointed, 3) for reasons that are NOT connected to upholding white power structures, and who, despite NOT being racist, 4) were willing to support an overtly racist government in order to do so.

Several such people exist. I don't think they're particularly prevalent.

To the extent someone was a one-issue abortion voter, okay.

To the extent they wanted to see the destruction of the labor movement in the US, no. To the extent they want to see gun control measures defeated and the eradication of constraints on police, absolutely not. If they wanted to see the courts uphold bans on refugees, asylum seekers and anyone born in a predominantly Muslim country, obviously not.

If they were hoping to see affirmative action and voting rights measures destroyed, and laws against discrimination struck down - well, you see where I'm going here.

I think its larger than you think

by DEM, Chicago, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:06 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

I also think you're ignoring the fact that trumps opponent was almost uniquely inept. You're also ignoring a segment of people who think the immigration in this country is mismanaged in a way that does not make them necessarily racist.

But feel free to assume bad faith.

Do you really think Hillary was uniquely inept?

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:27 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

Her resume is pretty damn good.

Trump was the uniquely inept on.

Hillary is just a "bitch". That's what people won't say in public but it is what they think. (Not accusing you).

Got it. Trump supporters are all racists

by DEM, Chicago, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:52 (2836 days ago) @ Grantland

and HRC's opponents are all misogynists.

Her resume was okay but her campaign was historically mismanaged. "It's Her Turn" ? Good Lord....What happened to a chicken in every pot or its morning in America ? Then she made the historic blunder of telling the electorate exactly what she thought of them (deplorable). Yes....historically inept.

Nah. There's just a positive correlation.

by Joe ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 20:31 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

- No text -

I do not necessarily think if you voted for trump you are

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:03 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

a racist, but I think that there was enough information available to gather that he was racist and so maybe:

this probably belongs in slainte thread for me.

But that is not what I was really getting at. I have always been curious about the charge that Hillary was inept.

The guys below did clarify for though, it was an inept campaign, historically inept.

Really hard to see how well a campaign allocates resources

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:58 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

from the outside until after the fact. It really seems like they pissed a lot away on the wrong stuff and, more damningly, kept potentialyl decisive resources on the sidelines in certain states because they wanted to be seen as savvy.

I think there's also just no substitute sometimes for the fact that if voters don't like a candidate it will be very hard for that candidate to win. Controlling for all other variables, Hillary has never been a particularly charming persona on the public scene. It just makes it a lot harder.

The Beer test seems silly

by DEM, Chicago, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:06 (2836 days ago) @ Mike (bart)

but it isn't. It was big part in Obama winning the presidency in both 08 and especially 12.

Everyone got on the Clinton campaign for not going to Wisconsin like they somehow overlooked it or took it for granted. It might have been that they thought it could only have harmed her. Her donning a Yankee cap and talking about how she'd been a Yankee fan forever in 2000 didnt hurt her in NY because its NY and she was going to get elected almost no matter what. Such ingenuousness doesn't play so well everywhere.

Didn't work for Aaron Burr, but it got him close...

by BillyGoat @, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:38 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

(at least in the musical)

They put the opponent's name in their slogan.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:54 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

It's been the golden rule of politics never to name your opponent since, what, ancient Rome?

They put the fucking opponent's name in their own fucking slogan.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

She was monster-ized for 10 years before 2016.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:50 (2836 days ago) @ Grantland

It was inept by the DNC to run her.

But her own hubris was pretty uniquely perfect to help her lose too.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

She is a very able person who ran an inept campaign

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:45 (2836 days ago) @ Grantland
edited by Jack, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:49

She was a skillful and very effective senator and Secretary of State but as a candidate, terrible. Her response to the email server thing was reminiscent of Bill's lame response to the Lewinsky scandal. But he was already president. She wasn't. And that's just the start.

Reportedly the campaign staff didn't even agree with that guy she's married two who lost one election in his entire life.

How the hell did Trump's staff, the staff that kept changing and ended up being managed by Steve Effing Bannon know that Wisconsin and Michigan were in play and her staff didn't? Two states she LOST to Bernie Sanders! And they thought Trump was dumb for going to Minnesota in the last week. And he almost won there, too.

It's just mind-boggling.

I thought she was in trouble in August

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:25 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

Went to Latrobe, PA for a friend's wedding. We drove throughout a lot of backwaters towns and areas on the way. Everywhere was PLASTERED with Trump banners, signs, etc. When I went home to liberal Chicago Suburbs, there were almost 0 Clinton banners or lawn signs. Not sure if meant a lot, but the enthusiasm gap between the two candidates was huge.

I remember texting some TPG posters during the debates.

by MattG, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:32 (2836 days ago) @ HumanRobot

And saying things like "she is so unfathomably bad at this."

I was definitely a Cassandra all summer and fall. Oh well.

They kept trying to package her as "cool", when they probably should have gone the opposite direction to see if that worked. Better to come off as a gigantic B who gets things done, than to come off as disingenuous.

She was a generally uncharismatic person. And even among her supporters, men were substantially more likely to think that. Still, she won by a lot of votes overall.

Anyway, we should probably put all that aside now and focus on the midterms, and the accelerating erosion of the rule of law in America.

Her ground game in Michigan was a mess

by CK08, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:07 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

There were on-the-ground activists sitting around with nothing to do, it was impossible to get a yard sign, national HQ wouldn't meet with local Dems, etc.

Reportedly was in Florida also

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 14:34 (2836 days ago) @ CK08

Especially in the African-American areas. Their leaders were livid that the campaign was assuming black voters would just show up and provided no resources.

A friend's daughter was a decently high level volunteer

by BillyGoat @, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:37 (2836 days ago) @ CK08

with the Chicago portion of the Hilary campaign. She was beside herself about how the national campaign had ignored the regional folks begging her to put more work in on the ground in Wisconsin and Michigan.

Hilary's resume is great. But I think she's a lousy

by BillyGoat @, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:31 (2836 days ago) @ Grantland

politician. I think she and her national campaign team were absolutely inept, especially down the home stretch of 2016.

But her paper qualifications for the job are impeccable.

Agree with that, a uniquely inept campaign.

by Grantland, y'allywood, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:48 (2836 days ago) @ BillyGoat

- No text -

Speaking as someone for whom 'save the immigrants..."

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:14 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

doesn't really move the needle on its own, the democrats should be doing 2 things very loudly right now that I think would help more than making Sarah Sanders feel bad about herself.

1) Someone (Bloomberg?) should be making major, national ad buys asking the question: If Trump will tear toddlers away from their mothers and imprison them, what won't he do?

2) Start asking why we keep hearing about longtime steakhouse owners, veterans, and teachers being deported, but we don't seem to be making any progress against MS-13. Why are resources being used to arrest and deport the "good hombres," while all those "bad hombres" are left to do harm? Maybe we can get to the good hombres after the bad are all removed.

ICE is just CYAing on their KPIs by picking off the easy fruit. And they sure as hell want nothing to do with MS-13 (nor are they equipped for it). Local authorities are similarly ill-equipped/unwilling. So what, exactly, has Trump done to fix that?

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

Im not defending Trump

by DEM, Chicago, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:19 (2836 days ago) @ domer.mq

I didn't vote for him and I loathe the man.

I just think that assuming bad faith on the part of anyone who did vote for him is (part of) a recipe that gets him reelected.

Right. I agree.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:29 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

I'm saying I don't think the liberals' "We have to save the immigrants" thing is a particularly strong message in helping get folks who voted for Trump to vote for Dem 2020. But I think doing those 2 things I just laid out will help a bunch in getting Obama->Trump voters to either turn out for more Dems in 2018 OR at least just not show up to vote for a pro-Trump GOP candidate.

I think HRC is awful. Seriously a profoundly 1) bad person and 2) horrible candidate. It was a confluence of her candidacy, a lot of angry old white dudes, and a little bit of Russian help that allowed Trump to sneak into this POTUS office.

Let's at least try to peel the Philly suburban house mom types away from his support base.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

angry old white dudes...

by HumanRobot @, Cybertron, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:30 (2836 days ago) @ domer.mq

...and dude-ettes, too.

62:34 non-college educated white women voted for Trump. It was only 51:45 for college educated white women. Overall, 52% of white women voted for Trump.

I would make a distinction between those who voted for Trump

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 11:44 (2836 days ago) @ DEM

vs those who are doubling down on support in light of what we've seen. I wouldn't agree with anyone's 2016 vote but I definitely would not consider it an indicator of bad faith on its own.

I think there's another segment, too.

by ReginaldVelJohnson @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:35 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

Yes, there's the group that buys into the "white grievance" angle. That group alone probably isn't enough.

The other group is the ones who don't like him, and may not even like his policies...but love the fact that he enrages people they also don't like (i.e. "the libs"). I think this group cuts across a larger swath of the mainstream GOP that can tip the balance to another victory. As Jim points out, ~90% of Republicans still support him. I'd be interested to see the breakdown of that 90% between those who actually support him/his positions and those that simply enjoy him sticking it to "the Clintons".

That Venn diagram is a perfect circle.

by MattG, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:41 (2836 days ago) @ ReginaldVelJohnson

People who support racism to “own the libs” aren’t holding their nose when they do it. It’s the same people.

Agreed.

by domer.mq ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:22 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

If the economy tank, so long as Trumpist White People feel like they're better off than minorities, they'll be happy.

Now, I have to say: If Trump garners even 1% of the minority 2020 vote, I'll be completely mystified. Those are just people too dumb to live.

--
Sometimes I rhyme slow sometimes I rhyme quick.

He's outrageously popular among Republicans still

by Jim (fisherj08) @, A Samoan kid's laptop, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 10:13 (2836 days ago) @ MattG

He's at 87%. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/politics/trump-approval-rating-analysis/index.html

And that number probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The Republicans aren't the majority of the country!

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:36 (2836 days ago) @ Jim (fisherj08)
edited by Jack, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:40

I don't care if he has 100% of them.

Hey, what do you think the percentage of Republicans who voted for Mitt Romney was? IIRC, it was in the neighborhood 87%. But Romney was a hell of a lot more popular with independents than Trump is now. Yet somehow, he lost.

Also, there are more self-identified Democrats than Republicans in this country, and more than 90% hate the guy.

Who bloody cares what his percentage among Republicans is? Trump would have lost if HRC had Obama's turnout just among Democrats, hell, just among Democrats in Milwauke, Philadelphia and Detroit, let alone the rest of the country. You think they're going to stay home the next time? I sure don't.

Yep. The youngsters had to learn that you don't always

by BillyGoat @, At Thanksgiving with Joe Bethersontin, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:41 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

get a "rock star" like Obama to vote for. It's more often the choice between two profoundly unexciting choices.

Trump and Romney both got 3% of the vote in Detroit

by CK08, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:10 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

But for Hillary, that amounted to a margin 30,000 votes smaller than Obama's, due to turnout.

Trump won Michigan by 10,000 votes.

If they do stay home, then I give up.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:48 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

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Some of them are voter-suppressed

by CK08, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 13:08 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

Especially in Wisconsin.

Yep. But I don't think they will

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:52 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish
edited by Jack, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:56

There are a lot of people out there who are sorry they didn't vote and won't make the same mistake again. There are polls of voter enthusiasm that are a complete flip of the last time. People who are worried that there will be a backlash and it will fire up the Trump base to vote, well, they did vote the last time, and again, Trump barely won.

It drives me nuts when people assume he'll win because he's the incumbent. That's complete nonsense. Three incumbent presidents in my lifetime have been defeated and a fourth would have been had he not ended his campaign. Every president is different and every presidential campaign is different.

I agree.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 12:56 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

I guess I have to see it to fully believe it, though.

there's a sunk cost effect that's potentially unsettling

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:58 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

if you're still with him after having our country kidnap small children from their parents just because we can, you might not actually be a fence sitter

there's no real great historical comp for this situation

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:10 (2836 days ago) @ Jack

is there?

I mean, the assault on norms by an aggreieved majority/pluralist ethinc faction is a pretty common story, but given that things at a material level are going along just fine in this country it seems like there's a limit to how many disaffected people out there are open to joining the proto-fascist project Trump is sort of laying out. They might want to be as "strong" as the Nazis, but this isn't Weimar Germany.

To be honest, as scary as this is all now, it would have been a hell of a lot scarier had he been sworn in in, say, 2009.

That's a great question

by Jack @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:29 (2836 days ago) @ Mike (bart)
edited by Jack, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 09:34

I need to really dig in on that one.

I'm wondering if pre-WWI might apply in some countries. Germany in that case also?

This is utterly dead on

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:44 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

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Are we there yet?

by Bryan (IrishCavan), Howth Castle and Environs, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:32 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

We are categorically closer, that's for sure

by Mike (bart), Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:51 (2836 days ago) @ Bryan (IrishCavan)

Whatever probability I assigned to the possibility that Trump would come for my child, or yours, if he thought there were adulation in it has jumped by perhaps two orders of magnitude since your post. The probability that an actor wielding the legitimated force of the state would follow through on such an order has not risen by as much, but it has risen.

Whatever probability I assigned to the possibility that GOP members of Congress and state-level officials would collude with Russians in blatant vote total manipulation to alter election results in their favor has jumped by at least two orders of magnitude. Grossly, I would place the probability of GOP authorities knowing of such efforts and doing a damn thing to resist them at less than 40 percent.

I'm serious. Trump just found out that he can do the unthinkable and that his supporters will love him all the more for it. His personal ownership of their consciences and good judgement is getting stronger with each appalling day. The more decorum he is met with, the more he will take.

It sure seems like it.

by oviedoirish @, Oviedo, Florida, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:37 (2836 days ago) @ Bryan (IrishCavan)

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Sums up my feelings quite well.

by ReginaldVelJohnson @, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 08:26 (2836 days ago) @ oviedoirish

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